Curse

UnChosen · Jun 11, 2010, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countess Marie

Actually I meant that when you get deep freeze'd and caught in a maelstrom (or your monk) that you go down really fast (proof in general that all forms of GW AI are owned by snare + nuke). No doubt, they have higher attributes and are attacking you from their level down to yours (which equals more dmg, too.) And it goes backwards as well.

Eles have never done dmg to wars and rangers. There are so many ways to own wars and rangers in this game, you should focus on hitting the casters. And your wanding comment is definitely hyperbole. You can kill a whole group of casters at once. No other single character caster can do that.

Every other attack in the game except for armor ignoring damage also takes a huge hit vs high armor level (or + elemental armor level) HM enemies.

I don't see the problem. Sorry you're angry though...

Edit: I wasn't even taking into account all of the pve buff skills. Maybe like Feast of Corruption or Rit spiker could hit for similar damage, but if you factor in burning and knock downs... it's no comparison.

Also, I don't agree that physical characters deal more damage than casters. They might be complemented better by buffs and hexes... so maybe that's your problem... not enough (or powerful enough) buffs/hexes that complement ele's dmg? That could be fixed much more easily than rebalancing the whole class.

-CM

Pretty much every other attacks are also armor ignoring. Necro and Mesmer spells are OBVIOUSLY armor ignoring, Rit spirits does armor ignoring damage, as well as Splinter Weapon. Bonus damage from attack skills are armor ignoring (which is where the REAL damage comes from, the auto attacks are just icing on the cake). And finally, monk's smite spells are all armor ignoring, including the superior Ray of Judgment. So you statement about how every attack also getting hit by armor is either misinformation or an outright lie. Every class in the game has decent armor ignoring options other than ele. (No Energy Blast and Obsidian Earth does NOT count as decent).

And once the retarded slow cast time and recharge time of ele spells are factored in, there's pretty much no comparison. Knockdown are utterly useless when there's nothing that's needed to be knocked down anyways. Other class have their own way to get AoE degen...in fact RoJ is pretty much a laugh in the face of eles, with a supposedly healing class doing superior damage along with eles' "trademark" burning condition.

There had been MANY posts in this thread and many previous ones with evidences (some previous threads even have picture evidence, and Ensign was well know to bring into light just high bad eles are at dealing damage) that physicals have by far higher DPS in comparison to eles. In fact, it was perfectly acceptable...until HM came along and completely

Cuilan · Jun 11, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Sounds to me like you don't like the profession. Maybe you should stop using it. Knock downs are amazing.

instanceskiller · Jun 11, 2010, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I agree quite a bit actually. I have been playing an ele for about 3 or so years and I have become very fond of the idea of the water magic line more so than the other ele attributes. However, like the op said, water magic isn't nearly as useful in pve than pvp and I would love for that to be addressed, though I doubt it will be soon seeing as how the priority list has been implied (dervs, para, smite monks).

By 'addressed', I don't mean for them to increase the damage of skills as that's what the fire lines there for. Raw damage. Rather than that, I would like them to innovate and make the water magic line more lively and creative like what they did to some mesmer skills such as Panic, without making it go off theme.
I have a couple ideas but don't know how easy it would be to incorporate into the game like this (thought with only pve in mind):

Slippery Ground.......Energy:10......Casting time:2.......Recharge: 20

Create a slippery ground around target and all nearby foes for 4...12...15 seconds. Every 4...3...3 seconds all foes standing on the slippery ground are knocked down and take 25 damage.

I was thinking of having the area of effect being scaled in line with your water attribute but this might be impractical, so maybe 'in the area' or possibly earshot range. I don't think this is by any means OP and has a low damage output of only 125 every 15 seconds with a high spec in water. However, it does create a slight more amount of variety in the water line that has 1/3 (10/30) of it's skills being snares. I mean, how many snares do you actually want/need? This skill would also make bringing snares in pve more worthwhile to a water ele as it helps to make foes stay in the slippery ground longer. It also doubles as an unreliable interrupt.

I would really like it if more skills in the water line were changed like this.

Jeydra · Jun 12, 2010, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countess Marie

Actually I meant that when you get deep freeze'd and caught in a maelstrom (or your monk) that you go down really fast (proof in general that all forms of GW AI are owned by snare + nuke). No doubt, they have higher attributes and are attacking you from their level down to yours (which equals more dmg, too.) And it goes backwards as well.

Eles have never done dmg to wars and rangers. There are so many ways to own wars and rangers in this game, you should focus on hitting the casters. And your wanding comment is definitely hyperbole. You can kill a whole group of casters at once. No other single character caster can do that.

Every other attack in the game except for armor ignoring damage also takes a huge hit vs high armor level (or + elemental armor level) HM enemies.

I don't see the problem. Sorry you're angry though...

Edit: I wasn't even taking into account all of the pve buff skills. Maybe like Feast of Corruption or Rit spiker could hit for similar damage, but if you factor in burning and knock downs... it's no comparison.

Also, I don't agree that physical characters deal more damage than casters. They might be complemented better by buffs and hexes... so maybe that's your problem... not enough (or powerful enough) buffs/hexes that complement ele's dmg? That could be fixed much more easily than rebalancing the whole class.

-CM

You can overpower AI Monks with straight out damage. Deep Freeze + Maelstrom is not only not necessary, it is less than ideal because the Water Elementalist doesn't deal much damage.

The argument that wanding kills people is of course hyperbole, but it was also meant to illustrate the flaw in your thinking. I can kill people by wanding. That's because the teammates I have carry me by dealing the damage, and that damage is sufficient to overpower enemy Monks. I've been able to clear the first few mobs in Shards of Orr HM with no problems, using only seven characters. An eighth character that does nothing but wand will therefore see that his wanding is killing people. Does that mean he's a useful member of the team, or does that show that wanding does good damage? So Deep Freeze + Maelstrom "kills people", but it is not necessary and is even subpar, because you kill people faster by bringing a straight out damage build.

As for the rest of your post, you don't appreciate how much damage other classes can do. Links for your perusal:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=62
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...t10430315.html
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=93
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=141

What is Elementalist DPS compared to that? A lot?

@Ensign - how do you know GW2 will be different?

UnChosen · Jun 12, 2010, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Sounds to me like you don't like the profession. Maybe you should stop using it. Knock downs are amazing.

Not amazing enough. ER, AP, Spirit Spam, Minions + Great Energy management, Crit Agil + any melee weapons, Mark of Pain, and many other are far more amazing.

I liked the profession until Anet's half baked HM came about.

Arato · Jun 12, 2010, 08:38 AM // 08:38

In any pack of mobs though, you're looking at about 2 rangers, and 3-4 melee, and at most 3 casters, 1 healer, and 2 other casters.. so the majority of the enemies in any pack you do pitiful damage vs.

So saying simply that we're still good because we can do high damage to casters doesn't help much, as casters in enemy groups are a minority. The only real exceptions to this are like, mursaat, which are caster heavy, and vaettir, also caster heavy. But everywhere else.. warrior/rangers dominate.

WIK White Mantle Groups: 2-3 warriors (usually 2 warriors and 1 paragon), 1 dervish or assassin, 1-2 rangers (or 1 ranger and 1 paragon with a pet), 1 healer, and then 2 other casters (adherent (ele), savant (ele), sycophant (mesmer/monk that acts as backup healer), Ritualist (which will either actually be a rit, or a necro)). Peacekeepers are structured similarly. Sometimes they also have jade, which are extra heavily armored warriors and rangers (except jade cloaks, which are heavily armored eles).

Charr: from 4-6 rangers by themselves, to 2-3 warriors, 3 casters (flameshielders, warders, prophets, mesmers, or hexreapers). So either half decent damage vs half poor damage vs, or all poor damage vs.

You get the idea.. basically most the time in general pve we're facing what we deal weakest damage vs.

Physicals don't suffer as much damagewise because most of their damage comes from buffs and bonus damage that is armor ignoring. Any time a skill says it deals +damage, that +damage is armor ignoring. Critical hits also somehow reduce the armor of an opponent for the damage calculation. You'll only really notice a damage difference between normal and hard mode on a physical character if you're autoattacking. Adding in splinter weapon and mark of pain further negates any difference hard mode has on physical damage.

Eles are essentially the only caster who doesn't deal armor ignoring damage (ritualists have some, and what isn't armor ignoring, has armor penetration, necros have some cold damage spells in death magic but that line is never really used for nuking, not with SS+MoP outclassing it regardless), and since spells can't crit, and spells don't get +damage that's armor ignoring, we're hit the hardest.

instanceskiller · Jun 12, 2010, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Just realized but wouldn't a buff to intensity solve most of this threads issues about eles not dealing enough damage? As it is right now, not many eles would consider using it on their bars due to its short duration and extremely long recharge of 45 secs. However a simple buff to it's duration and recharge but possibly a minor nerf to it's damage increase % would make eles more able to deal damage in hard mode. Perhaps a nerf to the spells it affects so only ele spells benefit will prevent it being used better by other classes.

ManlyMan · Jun 13, 2010, 01:47 AM // 01:47

So i've picked up the Ele class recently, for both pvp and pvm, and after reading this thread. What heck are you all smoking? Ele is pretty darn awesome, you people sure know how to make mountains out of ant hills.

Ensign · Jun 13, 2010, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by instanceskiller

Just realized but wouldn't a buff to intensity solve most of this threads issues about eles not dealing enough damage?

Not in any reasonable fashion no. A big part of it is just how much synergy there is with physical attacks, between your own buffs, in-line damage multipliers and utility, and supporting skills that boost output of physical attackers. There's very, very little that boosts spell damage at all, and what little there is, is self buffs of straight damage; there just aren't built-in synergies and cross-character support.

Making a single self-buff that mirrored the effectiveness of those webs would be broken as hell for how compressed it would be; leaving it at a reasonable level still leaves the character questionable when there's space for a web.

It really does need to be re-designed from base mechanics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Ensign - how do you know GW2 will be different?

The whole point of GW2 is to be radically different. The whole system has been re-designed to play differently. I expect people to be taken by surprise by how different it'll be.

Jeydra · Jun 13, 2010, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManlyMan

So i've picked up the Ele class recently, for both pvp and pvm, and after reading this thread. What heck are you all smoking? Ele is pretty darn awesome, you people sure know how to make mountains out of ant hills.

So I read your post and decided to try out Ele and man, what the hell are you guys smoking? Ele is pretty darn awesome, I can roll most of PvE using a sword with 0 Swordsmanship and kill everyone with my awesome 1-2 autoattacking damage, you people sure know how to make mountains out of ant hills.

tl;dr - you're all terrible.

@Above - well, one can hope

Countess Marie · Jun 13, 2010, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You can overpower AI Monks with straight out damage. Deep Freeze + Maelstrom is not only not necessary, it is less than ideal because the Water Elementalist doesn't deal much damage.

The argument that wanding kills people is of course hyperbole, but it was also meant to illustrate the flaw in your thinking. I can kill people by wanding. That's because the teammates I have carry me by dealing the damage, and that damage is sufficient to overpower enemy Monks. I've been able to clear the first few mobs in Shards of Orr HM with no problems, using only seven characters. An eighth character that does nothing but wand will therefore see that his wanding is killing people. Does that mean he's a useful member of the team, or does that show that wanding does good damage? So Deep Freeze + Maelstrom "kills people", but it is not necessary and is even subpar, because you kill people faster by bringing a straight out damage build.

As for the rest of your post, you don't appreciate how much damage other classes can do. Links for your perusal:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=62
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...t10430315.html
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=93
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=141

What is Elementalist DPS compared to that? A lot?

@Ensign - how do you know GW2 will be different?

Hey,

War dmg with MoP, imo, is not comparable. Especially because that was a necro MoP. Not that a self cast MoP would not have done dmg, too, but you still have to keep the hex applied as well as go to the target and hit it.

Everything else you posted in melee, also, and it seems to be single target. You're also taking into account pve only skills. Which, for all intents and purposes, should not be used to compare.

As I said, yes, the buffs are better for physical damage. If anything, they need some hexes that apply to them. You make it seem like you want eles to deal armor ignoring damage.

My point still stands and you seem to agree: an ele can demolish a group of casters in the way no other ranged attacker can and also can keep them on their back while doing it.

-CM

Cuilan · Jun 13, 2010, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countess Marie

You make it seem like you want eles to deal armor ignoring damage.

The want them fast casting, warrior armor, armor ignoring, condition spamming, army summoning, nuclear exploding, pre-nerf perma sin like farming, instant recharging, and unlimited energy.

cellardweller · Jun 13, 2010, 04:01 AM // 04:01

I don't think fixing ele's should be achieved by fixing eles. The problem they suffer is due to the fact the monster AR scales with level so they become less useful the more difficult the content. By stopping the AR scaling at 20 and giving the monsters more HP to accomodate, the disproportionate worth of armour ignoring damage could be addressed.

Cuilan · Jun 13, 2010, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Hard mode foes should have high armor and health from higher levels.

Countess Marie · Jun 13, 2010, 05:35 AM // 05:35

http://img405.imageshack.us/f/gw002r.jpg/

Just being stupid, bored... I know bed of coals isn't viable in HM. heh. But as for raw numbers that isn't bad, eh? The reason the dps looks like crap for eles is they still have some small hits near the end or the last bit of burning... where as a melee class stops and the dmg calculator stops...

I'm not saying they don't take a huge hit on HM, but the damage SHOULD be good enough to kill if you use it right. But yea don't bother nuking wars and rangers. Haven't spent any time in NF HM so I don't know how they hit paras or dervs, but I imagine they hit all of those pretty hard, too. It's only wars with their very high AL and rangers that have extra vs elemental that should be really problematic. But let the hexers take care of the melee and focus on nuking the casters.

-CM

StormX · Jun 13, 2010, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Right. At this point there are only a few ele skills that I would consider taking into HM.

searing flames+glowing gaze:
decent against low armor mobs, s*** against high armor mobs, useless against destroyers, owns snowmen. no one cares about snowmen.

meteor shower:
used with AP or glyph of renewal for KD spam

savannah heat:
iffy...dmg reduction in HM and scatter applies

+ some optional support like attune, glyph of energy

that's about it.

And don't get me started on deepfreeze and maelstrom. I'm not going to carry a 25 energy skill that hits mobs for 9 dmg and has a 30s recharge.

Earth dmg: mediocre dmg, slow cast time, long recharge. same deal

Quote:

* make Intensity an armor penetration buff - this cannot lead to balancing issues in PvP or ele monsters. Everyone who used air knows how awesome 25%penetration+cracked armor is - it deals nearly 75% of the dmg in the skill description to lvl28 rangers (calling that awesome shows my high expectations in ele dmg)

I agree with this. Make the duration longer as well.

Jeydra · Jun 13, 2010, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countess Marie

Hey,

War dmg with MoP, imo, is not comparable. Especially because that was a necro MoP. Not that a self cast MoP would not have done dmg, too, but you still have to keep the hex applied as well as go to the target and hit it.

Everything else you posted in melee, also, and it seems to be single target. You're also taking into account pve only skills. Which, for all intents and purposes, should not be used to compare.

As I said, yes, the buffs are better for physical damage. If anything, they need some hexes that apply to them. You make it seem like you want eles to deal armor ignoring damage.

My point still stands and you seem to agree: an ele can demolish a group of casters in the way no other ranged attacker can and also can keep them on their back while doing it.

-CM

That screenshot is of a Necro, not a Warrior. So Necros can demolish a group of casters in a way no other ranged attacker can, because of MoP. Nobody cares if they're stuck on their back while doing it - what you care about is 1) the monsters die fast and 2) you don't die, both of which are easily achievable.

Melee damage isn't necessarily single-target. Enter Splinter Weapon, Mark of Pain, Hundred Blades, Whirlwind Attack, Death Blossom and Scythes.

You don't have to buff melee with hexes; there are plenty of other things that work - viz. Order of the Vampire / Order of Pain, Great Dwarf Weapon / Splinter Weapon, Strength of Honour, Ebon Battle Standard of Honour. PvE skills should obviously be considered simply because they're there. Saying you don't use PvE skills is like saying you don't use Fire Attunement even though you have it. You might as well say "I prefer to run inferior bars because everything superior shouldn't be used".

I want Elementalists to be comparable to other professions at dealing damage.

Rits also demolish groups of casters faster than Elementalists.

Do you believe it is possible for a buffed Warrior to hit for 1k damage in less than a second? And of course you should consider DPS instead of highest damage a hit, because that's what kills mobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countess Marie

I'm not saying they don't take a huge hit on HM, but the damage SHOULD be good enough to kill if you use it right. But yea don't bother nuking wars and rangers. Haven't spent any time in NF HM so I don't know how they hit paras or dervs, but I imagine they hit all of those pretty hard, too. It's only wars with their very high AL and rangers that have extra vs elemental that should be really problematic. But let the hexers take care of the melee and focus on nuking the casters.

OF COURSE IT IS ENOUGH TO KILL. I've said this many times, I'll say it again. I have little doubt that I can do anything I want in HM - at least stupidly easy things like "NF HM" using only 7 characters instead of 8. Or with an empty skill bar, for that matter. So what? Does that prove empty skill bars are comparable to the much-vaunted Deep Freeze + Maelstrom that you were touting earlier? What is your point?

Make no mistake, Deep Freeze + Maelstrom is obviously stronger than running an empty skill bar, and there are also definitely better Elementalist-primary damage options than Deep Freeze + Maelstrom (or Searing Flames, for that matter). But your idea that "I can beat the game as Elementalist primary, therefore Elementalist primaries aren't underpowered" is totally stupid. Beating the game is not difficult. Beating the game in HM is not difficult either. Don't pretend it's something to be proud of.

You want to prove Elementalist damage to be excellent? Go ahead - beat Ooze Pit HM, using H/H, in less than 20 minutes without using consumables. Warrior primaries can do it in 15 minutes, as EFGJack proved in a screenshot. Can you do it as an Elementalist? Why don't you try?

PS: I know of Elementalist builds that hit more than 282 damage in a single second. Big deal, though.

Myotheraccount · Jun 13, 2010, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

snip

/facepalm. Even Ensign intervention wasn't enough to make you understand how this game works. I applause to your ignorance.

Also, MoP itself deal no damage, it has to be triggered by someone else. Ele can do the same spike alone or even better with a duo without having to worry about the mob not being big enough to generate sufficient damage from MoP.

Xenomortis · Jun 13, 2010, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countess Marie

War dmg with MoP, imo, is not comparable. Especially because that was a necro MoP. Not that a self cast MoP would not have done dmg, too, but you still have to keep the hex applied as well as go to the target and hit it.

Everything else you posted in melee, also, and it seems to be single target. You're also taking into account pve only skills. Which, for all intents and purposes, should not be used to compare.

1.
Buffs and hexes like Mark of Pain that have a strong synergy with physicals do count, because they are a huge reason why physicals are so much better at killing than Eles. One buffer or MoP Necro can multiply the damage done by every physical by a reasonable factor.

2.
Melee is how you kill stuff with physicals - this is of course a downside but it's one that is easily overcome when facing the AI. The single target damage is a factor against them, yes - but it means physicals have huge spike potential against important foes and you're still to add in things like Whirlwind Attack, Death Blossom, Scythe Attacks, Splinter Weapon and Mark of Pain.

3.
PvE skills can be added to both sides (Eles and physicals) and the result is still the same. This is in Campfire and is largely a PvE discussion so PvE skills are most relevant and should be taken into account.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

/facepalm. Even Ensign intervention wasn't enough to make you understand how this game works. I applause to your ignorance.

Ensign hasn't said anything that contradicts or argues against Jeydra's position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Also, MoP itself deal no damage, it has to be triggered by someone else. Ele can do the same spike alone or even better with a duo without having to worry about the mob not being big enough to generate sufficient damage from MoP.

But that is not relevant. I don't waltz into PvE on my own - I typically enter battle with 7 (sometimes 3 or 5, but the results are the same) teammates.

ZenRgy · Jun 13, 2010, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormX

And don't get me started on deepfreeze and maelstrom. I'm not going to carry a 25 energy skill that hits mobs for 9 dmg and has a 30s recharge.

Stop looking at numbers.